Guitar Pro 6 user ideas and issues

Keen · April 4, 2010 2:55 pm

So I'd just caught wind that GP6 was out and rushed to grab the demo. After fiddling around with it for a while, to say that I'm disappointed would be a bit of an understatement.

Anecdotally, my impression of GP6 was in a way reminiscent of my first experience with windows Vista: Essentially GP5.2 (XP SP2) with a facelift. Then when you look deeper; some minor overdue improvements, some fancy but superficial new additions, few wish fulfillments, loads of technical issues, and some huge backward steps.

Once I was done contemplating the new GUI and started tabbing, the first thing I noticed is how crash-prone the program is at this stage. I wouldn't qualify what I've been doing as "pushing it to its limits," yet I wasn't able to use it for more than a few minutes at a time without it crashing at some point, for mostly no apparent reason. At times it looked like it happened because I tried to get it to play a combination of effects of some sort, such as artificial harmonics and trem. bar diving on the same note—stuff that GP5, despite its flaws, has no trouble performing. I know it's early on, but one would expect the developers to release their product when it's actually finished, rather than delivering it in a virtually unusable state—at least in terms of how a tabber would use it.

I can't comment on RSE much, because I only have the demo's limited amount of instruments and samples to test, but so far it's left me unimpressed. The guitar and bass samples I heard were definitely an improvement in tone, but at the cost of popping/crackling noises and unwanted distortion. Also, palm mutes still sound weak, dead notes sound weaker, hammer-ons and pull-offs still sound like they're being picked, and worst of all, legato slides now sound as if every single note of the slide is picked. As for the drums, I thought the new (default) samples sounded inferior to GP5's, especially the bass drum.

Another thing to be said about RSE concerns the "playback while editing" mode, something I've come to rely on when transcribing. GP5 uses MIDI playback for this, which has been perfectly fine, but now that RSE took over it just sounds awkward because of the aforementioned popping/crackling noises and how the whole thing is processed. Also, the program doesn't handle alternate tunings correctly in this mode and always plays the notes as if they were in standard tuning, even when they're not.

The new notational elements are more or less as advertised. Double dotted notes, custom n-tuplets, fermata, arpeggiations... all welcome additions, if long overdue. Others, like repeat bar, multi voices, improved grace notes, improved fade in/out... are nice too, and some really impressive changes are the extended raseguado and artificial harmonics tools. Still no Golpe though, despite how common it is in Flamenco and other styles; and no pick-slide. Then there's the fact that we're still left with default vibratos that simply don't work with most styles of music that involve electric guitars, instead of being given some form of customizable vibrato. Apparently the developer team used to think that everyone performs their vibrato bends at the same speed and the same amplitude: 1/4 of a semitone. They still think the same, except half a semitone is now also a possibility... nevermind the fact that most rock guitarists usually stretch it to a whole tone or more. But it's not so bad, because you can make your own vibratos with the bend tool... right?

Wrong. And this is my biggest gripe with the new version: The changes in the bend and tremolo tools. Why oh why, Arobas, did you have to mess with the bend and tremolo tools? One of the best things about GP5 is the flexibility and freedom you get to create just about any bending or trem. bar pattern you want in a single note. Well, not in GP6:

user manual wrote:
The Bend window allows you to precisely set the type of the bend you want by adjusting its points. For sophisticated bends, you need to use ties in order to keep the score consistent in terms of audio playback.

So that means you only get a set amount of dots in the bend window (4 max.), allowing only a single bending motion per note. If you want more, you'll have to break down the note into several ties and apply an additional bend on every tied note. So, in theory, in order to produce an accurate vibrato with the new bend tool, you'll have to figure out the duration of each wave in the vibrato, break down the note into several tied notes—setting their duration to match the waves'—and apply a bend+release to each one of them. If that sounds insanely messy and difficult to you, or even impossible, you're on the right track.

That was one of the step backwards I mentioned earlier, another one being the drum notation. They've decided it would be a good idea to get rid the drum tab and leave only the staff. In order to edit it, you need to open a window called 'Instrumental Panel.' It doesn't appear automatically when you click on the drum track, despite the fact that it's the only way to edit the track—you have to go fetch it. You then have to click on the type of drum you want inserted, and there are no hotkeys yet (not for the different drums, just the different strokes):

user manual wrote:
A list of all Guitar Pro 6 Shortcuts will be made available in the very near future with an automatic update.

Or at least, they don't want to tell us what those hotkeys are yet. I can understand the switch, since the MIDI drum catalog is too limited for RSE, but it doesn't change the fact that the old system was quicker, easier to read and more fun to use.

Other than that, nothing truly groundbreaking. The new interface is nice, and there's probably going to be a lot of great RSE samples, but that's of little importance if these problems remain. Being an avid GP user I was looking forward to getting settled with this new version. I was even worried that I'd have GP6 tabs ready when most people wouldn't have made the transition yet. Don't know about you, but it looks like I'll be sticking with good ol' 5.2 for a while yet.

Last edited by Keen (April 4, 2010 3:02 pm)

Generis Humani · April 4, 2010 3:37 pm

Well, Keen, I have to agree on some accouts, although they've fixed a lot of bugs in version 6.0.1, and I think they'll be quite fast with fixing a lot of the rest. The drums and bend-issues will probably stay as they are though, as it seems it would be a massive re-programming/re-recording, but well, who knows? I've only tried the demo, although I bought the program like twenty minutes ago and am currently downloading the updates to the demo, and I'm hoping to see some things that will make this the epic program I've been expecting for years and years.

I'll try the program as soon as the download is complete, and then I'll probably be hooked for the better part of a month, just venture through, finding everything I can.

|_JR_| · April 4, 2010 5:26 pm

Adding to all that, why can't we use MIDI and RSE sounds in the same song? And why can't we change instruments with the F10 mixtable (not even MIDI ones, or switching amp presets in RSE tracks mid-song...)? My songs that needed an average of 7-8 tracks now will need some 13-15...

I'm happy with the sounds, all the effects are really cool although it will take some time for me to learn to use them properly. But those two things will make the software a lot harder to use, no doubt.

twxs · April 5, 2010 4:05 am

why can't we use MIDI and RSE sounds in the same song

actually gp6 is only full RSE or full midi, but it should change in the future.
with RSE you can use up to 4 variations per track (menu Edit->variation)

Concerning the drum track editing, you can use shortcuts instead of the instrument panel.
Basically, when you are on a staff line, the key '0' or '1' binds the default articulation for the element.
the other articulations can be reached using 2 / 3.
close hihat : 1 or 0, halfopen : 2, open : 3.
for the snare : hit(1), rimshot(2), side stick (3)
all the shortcuts are available in the instrument panel when the mouse is over an element (the number in parenthesis)

for chocked sound set the note staccato (shortcut : !) , etc...

@keen : what is your system configuration?

blackiel · April 5, 2010 4:41 am

I can't see the mix table so when I selected F10 to bring it up (as in previous GP versions), the "Automation Editor" opened. Is this the "mix table"? If it is, I don't like it. Why change something for the sake of it? The mix table worked very well in previous GP versions. I can't see where you can change an instrument in the Automation Editor; only tempo, pan and volume are available. The help file doesn't state much about this. It is neither intuitive nor informative!

Keen · April 5, 2010 5:42 am

I'm not sure they'll fix all the technical issues as quickly as you say, Generis, if at all. After all, they never got around to fixing some significant problems GP5 has had for years. Sure, we can expect the frequency of crashes to drop, or the software is barely usable, but I'm sure I'll find lots of annoying quirks even after the main run of updates.

And yes, they probably won't revert the changes they made to the bend/trem tools and the drum notation, not because it would be a major undertaking, but because it's just not something developers do.

I suppose most of these changes were made for GP to look more like other fancy audio-sampling software like FL Studio and Guitar Rig. They wanted everything to look and sound more 'proper' and professional, including what the users do with their own tabs—which is why they won't let you combine MIDI and RSE in the same piece. Unfortunately that includes a sacrifice of flexibility and ease-of-use.

The sad thing is, I probably won't be able to resist buying the program off the bat. Overall, the improvements outweigh the setbacks just barely, which for me makes it a trade-off alternative to GP5 rather than a complete update, but I'm too anxious to discover the new RSE samples and load my own tabs (if even possible). And besides, it's dirt-cheap and I get a discount from already owning GP5.

twxs wrote:
why can't we use MIDI and RSE sounds in the same song
actually gp6 is only full RSE or full midi, but it should change in the future.
with RSE you can use up to 4 variations per track (menu Edit->variation)

Concerning the drum track editing, you can use shortcuts instead of the instrument panel.
Basically, when you are on a staff line, the key '0' or '1' binds the default articulation for the element.
the other articulations can be reached using 2 / 3.
close hihat : 1 or 0, halfopen : 2, open : 3.
for the snare : hit(1), rimshot(2), side stick (3)
all the shortcuts are available in the instrument panel when the mouse is over an element (the number in parenthesis)

for chocked sound set the note staccato (shortcut : !) , etc...

@keen : what is your system configuration?

Athlon 64 X2 QL-64; 4GB RAM; Vista x86; onboard HD audio. It's a fairly new laptop.

As for the drum editing, that still doesn't explain how we get shortcuts for the drums themselves as opposed to the types of strokes. When using the instrument panel, you already have the choice of type of stroke, and you have to click there to get the desired type of drum anyway, so I don't see the point of the shortcuts you mentioned.

twxs · April 5, 2010 5:46 am

The next update is already in a testing stage and it should be available soon via the integrated updater.

The priority for now is set to fixing bugs, but we are also working on enhanced the actual midi support, the drum notation, etc...

for the drums, there is no direct shortcut to the drums, you have to move the cursor on the staff line before. I know that it's a complete different approach but with some training it can be very powerful

Athlon 64 X2 QL-64; 4GB RAM; Vista x86; onboard HD audio.

strange... rse should work fine on this hardware, try to change in the preference dialog the value of the RSE multi-threading option.

Last edited by twxs (April 5, 2010 5:50 am)

blackiel · April 5, 2010 5:47 am

these are the things that I've discovered so far:

- crashes on adjusting the Automation Editor (reported them to Arobas);
- GP4/5 tabs don't import well. For example, the strings and other non-fretted instruments were actually off key;
- following import of GP4/5 tabs, the drums/percussion are separated into separate tracks for each percussive instrument;
- the mix events are "Automation Editor" events;
- following import of GP4/5 tabs, many instruments' volumes are greyed out and unadjustable until you ungrey them using the Automation Editor (I discovered this by accident);
- the screen layout doesn't work well for normal monitors but suits widescreen better;
- the help file is not searchable.

The best thing about GP6 is the sound samples, which are much better than GP5 IMHO.

Generis Humani · April 5, 2010 6:38 am

blackiel wrote:
...
- GP4/5 tabs don't import well. For example, the strings and other non-fretted instruments were actually off key;
...

This is something you should really fix, it is really annoying.

TexasFury · April 5, 2010 4:15 pm

I love the new drum input method using the keypad, it helps me from using the mouse. It only took me about a day to get used to it. I tabbed something in GP5 recently and found myself missing the GP6 method.

About the bend/trem changes, Arobas told us (in the now defunct beta forum) about a feature they were planning called something like "Global Parameters". Every note was to be able to be customized, including custom vibrato. They are trying to implement it in an update, but it might be pushed to GP7.

Last edited by TexasFury (April 5, 2010 6:00 pm)

Serosis · April 5, 2010 6:05 pm

Hm, I never use the mouse when I input drums in GP5.
Probably cause I memorized entire drum-kit. Well just the necessities.

Keen · April 5, 2010 11:26 pm

twxs wrote:
strange... rse should work fine on this hardware, try to change in the preference dialog the value of the RSE multi-threading option.

My comment about the sound issues might have been a little misleading. It only occasionally happens—on specific chords and notes, or when entering notes—but mostly it runs smoothly when just playing a track. For example; when playing an acoustic guitar track, everything sounded fine except for a slight distortion on specific chords. The multi-threading was on by default, but I feel it's safe to say that hardware is not the cause of the problem.

As for the drums... fair enough. Will take some getting used to though, and I'm still not convinced it will be as fast to work with.

TexasFury wrote:
About the bend/trem changes, Arobas told us (in the now defunct beta forum) about a feature they were planning called something like "Global Parameters". Every note was to be able to be customized, including custom vibrato. They are trying to implement it in an update, but it might be pushed to GP7.

If that happens, it will definitely be the thing that tips the scales in favor of GP6, but until then...

TexasFury · April 6, 2010 12:53 am

While you cannot change instruments in a track, you can have up to four different effect chains, or variations (nameable). You create an effect chain, and save it. For example you want your rhythm guitarist to have a 1) dry distortion, 2) chorused distortion, 3) clean phazer and 4) tremolo with wah. It starts out with #3, so you go into the EDIT >> VARIATIONS menu and select Variation 3. Ten measures into the tab he switches to #4 so you go into EDIT >> VARIATIONS and select Variation 4. And so on.

One tip, turn off the Analog Dynamic compressor in the mastering panel (box above the C7 chord on the left).

Generis Humani · April 6, 2010 2:29 am

I renamed this topic, just to make it clear.

Generis Humani · April 6, 2010 6:48 am

I can might aswell post this video here, to give the ones without the software a little preview of the sound.

This is not some fancy super work, about five minutes work, 15 seconds long preview

This is unedited GP6 sounds, or, to be more exact, the effects and everything similar is handled by Guitar pro, as well as the wav-export. The only thing that's not gp6 is the fade out, as I decided to shorten the song by five seconds.

Serosis · April 6, 2010 1:33 pm

Generis Humani wrote:
I can might aswell post this video here, to give the ones without the software a little preview of the sound.

This is not some fancy super work, about five minutes work, 15 seconds long preview

This is unedited GP6 sounds, or, to be more exact, the effects and everything similar is handled by Guitar pro, as well as the wav-export. The only thing that's not gp6 is the fade out, as I decided to shorten the song by five seconds.

The clean sounds are great, but what about metal heads like me?

Open up some of my submitted tabs (the metal ones) and see how they sound.
I haven't heard a decent Metallica demo yet, open up my tab of Broken, Beat & Scarred.

That should give it a fair workout.

Last edited by Serosis (April 6, 2010 1:44 pm)

Generis Humani · April 6, 2010 1:39 pm

Serosis wrote:
The clean sounds are great, but what about metal heads like me?

Open up some of my submitted tabs (the metal ones) and see how they sound.
I haven't heard a decent Metallica demo yet, open up my tab of Broken, Beat & Scarred.

That should give it a fair workout.

The problem is you'll have to re-arrange a lot of the tab, too much effort just for a preview, but I can tell you this, as a fellow metalhead, there's tons of effects and amps etc to choose from and edit to your liking. The one problem I've got this far is that it's hard to find a decent palm mute setting, but I'm getting closer and closer!

TexasFury · April 6, 2010 2:23 pm

Here's an export of a Royal Hunt track I'm doing: http://www.filefront.com/16045341/RH.mp3/

eowyn · April 6, 2010 2:47 pm

Any idea how GP6 currently behaves on Mac OS X?
GP5 is pretty unstable on that platform - barely usable, in fact.

Serosis · April 6, 2010 7:06 pm

Generis Humani wrote:
Serosis wrote:
The clean sounds are great, but what about metal heads like me?

Open up some of my submitted tabs (the metal ones) and see how they sound.
I haven't heard a decent Metallica demo yet, open up my tab of Broken, Beat & Scarred.

That should give it a fair workout.
The problem is you'll have to re-arrange a lot of the tab, too much effort just for a preview, but I can tell you this, as a fellow metalhead, there's tons of effects and amps etc to choose from and edit to your liking. The one problem I've got this far is that it's hard to find a decent palm mute setting, but I'm getting closer and closer!

How much of it would have to be re-arranged?

I would expect just an import and change around the effects for the different guitars.
I try not to put too many mix tables in my tabs or switch instruments in one track unless it is absolutely necessary.

TexasFury wrote:
Here's an export of a Royal Hunt track I'm doing: http://www.filefront.com/16045341/RH.mp3/

Sounds pretty decent, but then again I only listen to that type of music when I'm, "Happy".

Last edited by Serosis (April 6, 2010 7:06 pm)

Generis Humani · April 7, 2010 2:06 am

Serosis wrote:
How much of it would have to be re-arranged?

I would expect just an import and change around the effects for the different guitars.
I try not to put too many mix tables in my tabs or switch instruments in one track unless it is absolutely necessary.

Well, the thing is that the effects are used in quite a different way than the mixtable and such things. I don't know how much would have to be changed, but probably everything except the fingerings.

Have you tried the trial version?

gnuus · April 7, 2010 5:42 am

eowyn wrote:
Any idea how GP6 currently behaves on Mac OS X?
GP5 is pretty unstable on that platform - barely usable, in fact.

Pretty stable in my opinion!

Serosis · April 7, 2010 10:22 pm

Generis Humani wrote:
Have you tried the trial version?

Yeah, but it doesn't really lend itself to the "real" experience.

I even went as far as trying to re-tab some excerpts out of my compositions but once I got to the drums I got lost. It did sound decent but than again a tab import would've been better.

JethroTull59 · April 8, 2010 11:03 am

It did sound decent but than again a tab import would've been better.

I don't understand what you want to say, what the difference between tab import and a tab entered ?

Serosis · April 8, 2010 10:51 pm

JethroTull59 wrote:
It did sound decent but than again a tab import would've been better.
I don't understand what you want to say, what the difference between tab import and a tab entered ?

One takes considerably less time than the other.

Either way I can't save it so why remove the ability to open tabs?

Guitar Pro 6 user ideas and issues

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twxs wrote:

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blackiel wrote:

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twxs wrote:

TexasFury wrote:

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Generis Humani wrote:

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Serosis wrote:

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Generis Humani wrote:

Serosis wrote:

TexasFury wrote:

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Serosis wrote:

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eowyn wrote:

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Generis Humani wrote:

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JethroTull59 wrote: